tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8677649049588007585.post3966710555028332843..comments2014-12-19T22:29:56.259ZComments on PL/SQL Challenge: Fact Mining and the Weekly Logic Quiz (10983)Steven Feuersteinhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16619706770920320550noreply@blogger.comBlogger7125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8677649049588007585.post-29868337533702516952012-01-09T17:51:22.081Z2012-01-09T17:51:22.081ZThanks, Sean, and all others for your comments. I ...Thanks, Sean, and all others for your comments. I am going to change that choice, get rid of the "IF...THEN..." entirely, and give all players credit for that choice.Steven Feuersteinhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16619706770920320550noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8677649049588007585.post-1802229383451306522012-01-09T14:06:49.512Z2012-01-09T14:06:49.512ZI like the example in Pavel's link, but I don&...I like the example in Pavel's link, but I don't think that proves the point.<br /><br />If a false assumption means you can prove anything. Then you can both prove it is correct and prove it is not correct.<br /><br />I chose incorrect based on the judgement of the previous fallacy where it was marked incorrect. I didn't post a comment because there was already precedent that fallacies are scored incorrect.<br /><br />If this position is changing then I suggest everyone be given credit for that answer regardless of choice.Seanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15790298349995376048noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8677649049588007585.post-63659017293901376702012-01-08T10:30:38.110Z2012-01-08T10:30:38.110ZHello Steven,
No, I will not be mad on you if you...Hello Steven,<br /><br />No, I will not be mad on you if you do this and give everyone credit :)<br /><br />I would only be mad if you would leave it "as is" and consider it incorrect, which is WRONG !<br /><br />You do not need to GENERALLY stay away from "IF x THEN y" choices, subject to the only condition<br />that "x" can be both TRUE and FALSE for the different possible solutions of a specific puzzle.<br />( that is, "x" is neither always TRUE nor always FALSE ).<br />In such a case, the IF choice could be a "living" one that cannot be objected.<br /><br />I am "mad enough on myself" for how I started this quarter ... <br />no more "resources" to be mad on you as well :) :) :) <br /><br />At least in this Logic competition, I am still alive ...<br /><br />Thanks a lot & Best Regards,<br />Iudithiudithhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04905902445036068357noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8677649049588007585.post-79099509196061833932012-01-07T21:20:43.845Z2012-01-07T21:20:43.845ZThanks for the reminder, Iudith. Yes, I did it aga...Thanks for the reminder, Iudith. Yes, I did it again. I need to stay away from these "IF x THEN y" in the logic quizzes.<br /><br />I can change it back to correct, but really the bigger issue for me is that I want these quizzes to be helpful and interesting not only on the day taken but on into the future.<br /><br />So I would much rather change this choice to something like:<br /><br />"1 is in the solution."<br /><br />and then give everyone credit for marking it as correct. That messes things up a bit for our "first takers" but makes the quiz much better for future takers. <br /><br />Will you be mad at me if I do this? :-)<br /><br />Pavel, I can't get to that URL you provided. Could you confirm it?Steven Feuersteinhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16619706770920320550noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8677649049588007585.post-43214596658986604722012-01-07T19:11:17.680Z2012-01-07T19:11:17.680ZFunny. If you handle this quiz as an exercise in l...Funny. If you handle this quiz as an exercise in logic, then you should not change the answer. Why?<br />"1 in the solution" implies "7 is not in the solution". Or A implies B. But if A is not true, the statement A implies B is always true. Look up the truth tables on "implies". And the reader is asked to say which statements in the quiz are true. So the second choice (9084) is a true statement. <br />So, who is wrong here? (me? not really).Wim de Langehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05505341375827859005noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8677649049588007585.post-45498439239914164602012-01-07T18:52:21.098Z2012-01-07T18:52:21.098ZI'm one of those, who identified the problem. ...I'm one of those, who identified the problem. However, my reasoning and conclusion were different than presented in this post.<br /><br />I agree, that 1 could not be in the solution at all, but that does not automatically imply that the choice is incorrect. In fact, the choice is still correct. The reason is quite simple. We have an implication "If 1 is in the solution, then 7 cannot be in the solution." with false assumption ("1 is in the solution"). Such an implication is always true regardless of the second part (using a false assumption, you can prove anything - the following web has a good example: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1187530).<br /><br />As a result, the choice itself is scored correctly. It is the explanation about its correctness, that should be changed.<br /><br />PavelPavelnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8677649049588007585.post-35560016433136425812012-01-07T17:51:53.879Z2012-01-07T17:51:53.879ZHello Steven,
I have observed the same problem wh...Hello Steven,<br /><br />I have observed the same problem while playing the quiz, and, if you remember,<br />I already signalled a similar case in one of the first quizzes played in this competition<br />and we seemed to agree that the best would be to avoid including such choices in the quizzes.<br /><br />The fact that "1 cannot be in the solution" is indeed TRUE,<br />BUT, very important, this still DOES NOT render false the IMPLICATION that says:<br />"If 1 is in the solution, then 7 cannot be in the solution".<br /><br />As per the boolean logic's table of truth for the "implication" operation,<br />a FALSE (predicate) can imply anything, including a TRUE (predicate),<br />as it happens in our case.<br /><br />When we say "a implies b" we DO NOT state anything about "a" being absolutely TRUE or absolutely <br />FALSE.<br /><br />Here the rationale that proved the statement "if 1 is in the solution then 7 is not in the solution"<br />was completely correct, and the choice asked about the TRUE or FALSE value of the IMPLICATION<br />predicate, and NOT about the truth value of "1 is in the solution" OR "7 is not in the solution"<br />taken as separate statements, which would have been a completely different question.<br /><br />So, I think that it will be wrong to change the scoring of this choice.<br /><br />If any objection can be raised, then it pertains to the "CORRECTNESS of the choice as a choice",<br />which in fact DOES NOT render the choice as FALSE, but merely questions its appearance in the quiz.<br /><br />So, if you want to make everybody satisfied, the most you can do is to remove this choice<br />from the quiz and rescore based on the remaining 3 choices only.<br /><br />Thanks a lot & Best Regards,<br />Iudithiudithhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04905902445036068357noreply@blogger.com